Survive! Knives and Criticisms of the Small Batch Post
Something of a controversy erupted so the scheduled Olamic review will be next week. Sorry folks. That knife deserves a really well written review.
The folks in the BladeForums subforum for Survive! Knives didn't take kindly to the criticism I leveled against Survive! Knives in my post on Small Batch Insanity. Here is the thread (I have a link and a thread because I know some browsers bump out links to forums):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1429522-EverydayCommentary-take-on-Survive
Additionally, since that post I have done some following up with the company regarding my order. I thought this stuff warranted a post as I know many of you are interested in Survive! Knives stuff, so here it is.
The folks in the BladeForums subforum for Survive! Knives didn't take kindly to the criticism I leveled against Survive! Knives in my post on Small Batch Insanity. Here is the thread (I have a link and a thread because I know some browsers bump out links to forums):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1429522-EverydayCommentary-take-on-Survive
Additionally, since that post I have done some following up with the company regarding my order. I thought this stuff warranted a post as I know many of you are interested in Survive! Knives stuff, so here it is.
Order Update
Again, its not the wait or the price. My problem is the poor communication coupled with up front payment. Those two things are unacceptable to me. And really, the up front payment thing isn't the worst thing in the world if there was a reputation of delivering goods backing it up. But Survive! Knives' poor communication has created expectations for the delivery of knives that has not been met. It all goes back to the communication issue. And that is one thing they can fix with zero capital investment.
RCB2000's feedback
RCB2000 brings up the Busse ordering system. He points out correctly that I did not explain that Busse only takes a dollar to place an order and then charges the rest later. This is true, both in that I did not mention it in the post and that Busse does this. I did not mention in the post because I had mentioned in in other posts and on the podcast. Given that I didn't think I needed to, but I should have. RCB also points out that Busse released a slew of knives this year and that is true too. They also did a bunch of other work--Blade, LEO/Mil work. True as well. My beef with Busse is that after the initial emails we received no communication about delays. I had to call to get it. But compared to Survive! Knives, Busse looks saintly. At least they said the knife was not in stock and they have a wait time of 2-20 weeks (one can complain of the lack of precision, but that's not the point).
RCB2000 also points out given Busse's work load that the four extra weeks seems worth it. I agree. It does. I just wish they would have told me about it instead of forcing me to go look for it. Maybe in that extra four weeks they can make me a sheath ;)
RCB2000 had one final point about Survive! Knives' order process: "I think you are making it sound more complicated and convoluted that really is, again to serve your narrative." There is simply no way around this fact--the process is not as simple as it could be. They could have a binary code: in stock or out of stock, but they chose not to do that. It may very well be true that the blades are worth the hassle, but there is, unquestionably, a hassle you have to wade through to buy something. This hassle is unnecessary in two senses. First, they could just be clearer about what they have and when it will ship. That's free. Second, compared to other small elite gear operations, like Muyshondt, Survive! Knives ordering is a baffling. Muyshondt is a one man show, a part time gig, and he is making very complex items.
Yet, if you go to Enrique's site, you can click a button and buy something. That is generally not possible on Survive! Knives site, despite appearing as though you can.
Silver Needle's feedback
Silver Needle claimed I disliked Survive! Knives. I will be truthful--I don't. I don't really like or dislike any brand. I like products and designers, but brands...they don't register for me as a like or dislike thing. They are pure abstraction, so liking or disliking a brand is similar to having an emotion response to the number 3.476 or some other arbitrary abstraction. I do like the design and look of many of Survive! Knives' blades, hence me placing an order.
He also pointed out that I was implying that Guy at Survive Knives was using scarcity as a marketing ploy. Let's be candid here--this is the fundamental tenant of capitalism. Scarcity drives demand. To say Guy was not doing that on a macroeconomic level is silly. Silver Needle is probable correct that it is not Guy's intent or plan, but to deny that he wants to sell hard to get products so he can make money is crazy. On a microeconomic level, I am certain Silver Needle is right that Guy Seiferd did not plan the scarcity. It seems like the fundamental issue over at Survive! Knives is a lack of planning, so I will chalk the scarcity up to that and not some nefarious marketing scheme (even if that is what a marketing person would want). As such, Silver Needle is right and I am wrong here--If I implied it was part of a plan, I was wrong.
Silver Needle makes a very good point and one I wish I would have stated outright. He says: "If he really thinks Guy is out to fool people by displaying designs and specs on the website yet delaying the production on purpose, then I'd strongly disagree." I do not think this at all. What I think happens is simple--Guy is a knife making savant and loves designing and grinding knives. His business organization and capacity need work. I have no doubt that if he could, Guy would meet all of the orders instantly. He just hasn't focused on the production process enough. And it has been years now. It's imperative, if Survive! Knives is to...er...survive and thrive as a business that they work on this issue. I can be patient and wait and so can a lot of the folks in their subforum, but the general knife buying public won't and eventually the fans will have bought all they want or need.
Lazarusrat's feedback
Lazarusrat has a good point too--I am upset that I had to pay in advance. The custom in the knife world, as mentioned above, it to NOT do this and nothing I have seen from Survive! Knives makes me think I should approach them differently. In fact, I have never paid up front for a custom knife, whether it was from Charles Gedraitis or Scott Sawby or Steve Karroll.
The custom is you don't do this and I have been careful not to do it either.
Clip's feedback
Clip makes a very good point, basically exactly my criticism--Survive! Knives should have more realistic (and posted) delivery dates.
General feedback
A few people pointed out that Survive! Knives model is very similar to the model used by Randall Made Knives. This is not true. The only common feature of the ordering systems is that both take a long time. Beyond that, there are no similarities. First, Randall Made Knives require only a $50 deposit on a knife that is usually more than $400. Survive! Knives requires payment in full ahead of time. Second, while the wait times are long, right now your order placed today would be delivered in 2021, Randall says that up front, which Survive! Knives does not. Third, and most critically, Randall Made Knives have generations of reliable production to count on and reassure customers. Survive! Knives has no track record of delivering products on a timely and consistent basis, even since their founding in 2012. This has always been an issue with them. Randall, on the other hand, churns out stuff like clockwork, slow clockwork, but clockwork nonetheless.
Conclusion
Survive! Knives makes what looks like to be great knives, now they need to work on the business of making those knives. First and foremost, and least expensively, they need to be clear and honest about what they have and how long it takes to ship stuff. That is absolutely without question a requirement. If they can't do that, regardless of how good the knives are, the business will never work. When all or most of your sales are done over the Internet, a form of communication (among other things), having good communication is key. If they don't change this, regardless of anything else, including the quality of the product, they will not succeed as a business. And this is the change that is easiest to make--it's free.
Second, the idea of paying up front is just not in carrying with custom. Nothing that Survive! Knives, or pretty much any other custom/small batch maker, does convinces me that they should be the exception to the rule and tradition in the knife world. If they were making Van Barnett-level blades with insane complexity and gold parts, sure. But they aren't. I am not investing in a company--despite what some people want--I am buying a product. If they want to do this "invest in my company thing" fine, go to a crowdfunding site. If not, don't expect people other than your most ardent fans to accept that as a business model. People want to buy products, not stock in Survive! Knives.
Finally, to give them slack because they are "young" or "small" is to ignore a whole class of gear makers that are the same age and size or newer and smaller and doing more complex stuff and getting it right, time and time again. Will Hodges of Tactile Turn makes some of the finest stuff out there and he gets it right over and over again. Enrique Muyshondt is the same--every product is a superior product made to the highest standards and produced and released on a regular basis. I have yet to see or hear a reason why Survive! Knives is different or should be held to a different standard. The list of folks that are in the same position as Survive! Knives or are newer and smaller goes on and on--Jason Hui of Prometheus, Brian Gray of Edison Pens, Brad Dowdy of NockCo, Jens Anso, Eugene of Olamic Cutlery, Jeff Freeman of Freeman Outdoors, Ryan of the James Brand...these are the folks I like to focus on with this blog and one of the reasons I was interested in Survive! Knives to begin with, but if they are going to enter this elite company, they need to do better.
Furthermore, and to take this back full circle to the point I was making in the original Small Batch Insanity post, the knife world is populated by very small companies. Even if you exclude the folks I mentioned above, the other companies, with three notable exceptions, are all tiny. Spyderco is a knife company with a global presence that has consistently made great knives for more than twenty years. They do this with a staff of around 30 people. CRKT is smaller. SOG is not much bigger. In fact, Benchmade, KAI USA, and Gerber/Fiskars are the only companies that are real, medium to large businesses. Then there is the thing that Thomas W explained to me once--anyone can make a good knife once, a great maker makes them consistently for years. Chris Reeve has done this. Mike Stewart has done this. Sal Glesser has done this. But some folks don't seem to appreciate that achievement. Instead, they fawn over these small companies for reasons that are unclear to me.
I want Survive! Knives to succeed. I want them to make great knives. I want one of them. But they need to work on the business side a little or they will, as I put it before, get lapped by the competition. Even if they don't want to do that and invest in infrastructure, they need to communicate with their customers better. What I experienced is unacceptable.
I appreciate BladeForums folks for knocking some sense into me. I hope I could return the favor. Thanks to RCB2000, Silver Needle, and Clip for letting me quote them. And, as always, the floor is open--if anyone wants to post a rebuttal, send it to me and I will publish it unaltered. Additionally anyone is welcome on the podcast. Heck if Guy Seiferd himself wants to write something or come on, he's welcome, too.
Anonymous's Feedback
One person took me up on my promise to publish comments unaltered. Here is what he or she wrote:
Saw your article on everyday commentary and recently your reaching out at the bladeforums.com Survive! subforum.
I wanted to give you a heads up to what you are walking into if you don't already know and a little background history.
I own six survive knives purchased over years including their newer 2016 models and I have about $1,000 on "preorder". So I am very much in-the loop and speak from personal involvement and experience. here is my current collection... http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1750/XQH9eQ.jpg
I wanted to give you a heads up, there are MANY very upset customers and non customer (observers) that believe Survive has gone from a legit business making excellent knives, to a legit business making excellent knives that is running a pyramid scheme, either deliberately or through gross incompetence. About two years ago, Survive! Changed thier main sales model over from selling them in small batches as they came up, to selling them primarly as "preorder/prepurchases".. When they made this change, they went so far as to claim it as an "investment" program inesting into the future of thier company. When they did this, they came up with Multiple CAD drawings of knives that only existed on paper and started taking preorders for thos.. In total, they created nine CAD drawing nonexistant knives and took preorders for those. The reasoning was so they could know exactly how many knives to commit to and to order the materials in Bulk and for just what they needed. Seemed legit. Where this has gone VERY south, is with the lead times. They only make ONE model at a time. Currently, they have been manufacturing the current model (GSO 4.7) for about a year.. and they are still not finished.
I brought this up in a concerned thread that raised lot of drama in bladeforums.. The concern being... if it takes them a year to make ONE knife, and they have NINE models on backorder with prepayments is that model sustainable? You can read this discussion here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1399221-What-is-reasonable-and-legal
You can also look at a lot of angry customers at their own facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/SurviveKnives/
Just a heads up, the Bladeforums survive! subforums is a group of dedicated coolaid drinking fanboys that will absolutely defend Survive! and SK!s business model no matter what you say. I wanted you to know that those specific people do NOT represent the bulk of the knife community and SK! customers. Many of the bladeforum SK! forum fans are made up of die hard fanboys that have THOUSANDS of dollars to spend on frivolous toys with no care or concern. Ineed you will see a number of thier fans will talk about how "Well I have thousands of dollars on X other investments and not worried about when they come in" The reality is, the rest of the survive customers- it IS a big deal to spend a thousand dollars and go years with nothing to show for. And yes, the lead times ARE a concern because if it takes one year to make one model- and they have 10 other models on backorder prepaid for, is that really a sustainable model? At some point they are going to get a mass demand for refunds..
One thing the folks on Blade Forum pointed out was that I was not exactly clear on the time line. They were 100% correct. I should have been better. Here is the blow by blow account.
9/3/16, 3:01 PM: I click on a button for the GSO 4.7 that says "In Stock" and I buy the knife.
9/3/16, 3:03 PM: Confirmation email received from Survive! Knives. This is an automated email.
9/3/16, 3:03 PM: Order Status email received from Survive! Knives. It indicates that my order is
awaiting fulfillment. This is an automated email.
9/10/16, 3:31 PM: I receive an email in response to my email asking about my order. It is an automated email that says that Survive! Knives is a small team and they are busy fulfilling orders. This is an automated email.
9/12/16, 1:29 PM: I receive an email from Jordyn. It says that they are working their way through GSO 4.7 orders from "earlier last year." I don't know if she means earlier this year or earlier 2015.
9/13/16, 11:15 AM: I receive an email responding to my request for a more precise shipping date (actually ANY shipping date). This is the same email I received on 9/10/16. It is an automated email.
9/13/16, 12:44 PM: Jordyn again emails me and tells me that "the GSO 4.7 Cru Forge V knives just need sharpened and then they will be ready to go. You should have a tracking number from us within the next couple of weeks."
Jordyn's second response confirms that the GSO 4.7s are not "In Stock" they are "In Production". That's fine, I just wish I knew that when I bought the knife. They clearly knew when they marked them for sale that they didn't have product to actually ship to people and to say that it is "In Stock" when its not is a bad business practice, whether selling knives, cars, or medicine. In fact, Survive! Knives has a notation for "In Production" they just didn't use it on the knife I ordered, which they could have easily done.
Argument Restatement
9/3/16, 3:01 PM: I click on a button for the GSO 4.7 that says "In Stock" and I buy the knife.
9/3/16, 3:03 PM: Confirmation email received from Survive! Knives. This is an automated email.
9/3/16, 3:03 PM: Order Status email received from Survive! Knives. It indicates that my order is
awaiting fulfillment. This is an automated email.
9/10/16, 3:31 PM: I receive an email in response to my email asking about my order. It is an automated email that says that Survive! Knives is a small team and they are busy fulfilling orders. This is an automated email.
9/12/16, 1:29 PM: I receive an email from Jordyn. It says that they are working their way through GSO 4.7 orders from "earlier last year." I don't know if she means earlier this year or earlier 2015.
9/13/16, 11:15 AM: I receive an email responding to my request for a more precise shipping date (actually ANY shipping date). This is the same email I received on 9/10/16. It is an automated email.
9/13/16, 12:44 PM: Jordyn again emails me and tells me that "the GSO 4.7 Cru Forge V knives just need sharpened and then they will be ready to go. You should have a tracking number from us within the next couple of weeks."
Jordyn's second response confirms that the GSO 4.7s are not "In Stock" they are "In Production". That's fine, I just wish I knew that when I bought the knife. They clearly knew when they marked them for sale that they didn't have product to actually ship to people and to say that it is "In Stock" when its not is a bad business practice, whether selling knives, cars, or medicine. In fact, Survive! Knives has a notation for "In Production" they just didn't use it on the knife I ordered, which they could have easily done.
Argument Restatement
This highlights my two problems I had with Survive! Knives. It is not the wait, it's the poor communication combined with up front payment.
I have waited for years for a knife, two actually--my Swift and my Anso both required a wait of at least two years. But I understood that going in because both makers told me. Survive! Knives sort of poor, contradictory communication with customers is not healthy for that business.
When you add to this the notion that they require payment up front, there is a distinct unease that goes along with placing this order. I am willing to trust Survive! Knives for a long time. If problems arise I can take care of them when the time comes. For now, I think there is enough reason to let the money ride that I won't rescind my order. The problem is there is a long and sullied history in the custom knife world of payment up front. Tradition has come to be that reputable makers, from small guys all the way up to world class makers like Scott Sawby, do not ask for money up front absent an outlay for special materials.
Again, its not the wait or the price. My problem is the poor communication coupled with up front payment. Those two things are unacceptable to me. And really, the up front payment thing isn't the worst thing in the world if there was a reputation of delivering goods backing it up. But Survive! Knives' poor communication has created expectations for the delivery of knives that has not been met. It all goes back to the communication issue. And that is one thing they can fix with zero capital investment.
BladeForum Feedback
I will ignore all of the ad hominem attacks, personal insults, demeaning comments, claims of my infantile behavior because, well, it's the Internet and people react that way when something they like is criticized. I assume they are not directed at me because they know me or they have any merit behind them, but were directed at me because I was the person criticize what they like. To me, this has an unmistakeable display of passion, and that means there is something to this Survive! Knives thing. I'd rather not be insulted, but it is an indication that people like these blades.
I will also note the problems with brand loyalists. I understand that it is the Survive! Knives sub forum, the epicenter of their fandom, but some of the comments were really nothing more than articles of faith. But let's move on from those too because as in all issues of pure faith, reason holds no sway.
Chiral.Grolim's Feedback
I will, of course, point out the silliness the legal terms thrown around because, well, traditionally forum boards have not been great sources of legal wisdom. First, libel is not a term used by the law much anymore; it has been almost universally replaced by the term defamation or false light. Libel is the kind of legalese that non-lawyers use to sound lawyerly. Second, New York Times Co. v. Sullivan discusses defamation and the 1st Amendment. Third, typically defamation involves claims that are demonstrable false. Opinions, like "this is an ugly painting" or "I think they are doing this to drum up publicity" are not the kind of statements subject to defamation claims. Not much there.
Specifically, the claims listed as dishonest, were, either, not said by me, or at the very least, arguably true. The first claim that Chiral.Grolim called dishonest and libel was the notion that Survive! Knives used the shortages as marketing. That is not what I said. Here is the quote: "But for some reason, folks think this is a good way to build buzz for their gear, like free advertising." The operative word here is "folks" and by that I meant marketing people in general, not Survive! Knives. Just look at console releases, which I explicitly referenced in the original post, to see what I mean. Nothing better than a shortage at Christmas to generate free publicity.
The second claim was that Surive! Knives is peddling vaporware. Well, here is the definition of vaporware from Google: "software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed." This pretty clearly applies to Survive! Knives. They have drawings and CAD renderings of blades and they have taken preorders on them. They are up on the site, thus being advertised, and are not yet available. The vaporware may, eventually turn real, just like some lucky kids got SuperGrafx in Japan, but this is neither dishonest or wrong at the moment.
The third claim was that Survive! Knives is running a scheme to bilk consumers. I never said this and I don't believe this to be the case. Some folks on the thread do believe that to be true, but I never said that or implied it.
The fourth claim was that the only way to acquire a knife was pay up front and wait years. Again, I never said this and I don't know if it is true one way or the other, in part, because of just how confusing it is to try to buy a knife from Survive! Knives.
I will also note the problems with brand loyalists. I understand that it is the Survive! Knives sub forum, the epicenter of their fandom, but some of the comments were really nothing more than articles of faith. But let's move on from those too because as in all issues of pure faith, reason holds no sway.
Chiral.Grolim's Feedback
I will, of course, point out the silliness the legal terms thrown around because, well, traditionally forum boards have not been great sources of legal wisdom. First, libel is not a term used by the law much anymore; it has been almost universally replaced by the term defamation or false light. Libel is the kind of legalese that non-lawyers use to sound lawyerly. Second, New York Times Co. v. Sullivan discusses defamation and the 1st Amendment. Third, typically defamation involves claims that are demonstrable false. Opinions, like "this is an ugly painting" or "I think they are doing this to drum up publicity" are not the kind of statements subject to defamation claims. Not much there.
Specifically, the claims listed as dishonest, were, either, not said by me, or at the very least, arguably true. The first claim that Chiral.Grolim called dishonest and libel was the notion that Survive! Knives used the shortages as marketing. That is not what I said. Here is the quote: "But for some reason, folks think this is a good way to build buzz for their gear, like free advertising." The operative word here is "folks" and by that I meant marketing people in general, not Survive! Knives. Just look at console releases, which I explicitly referenced in the original post, to see what I mean. Nothing better than a shortage at Christmas to generate free publicity.
The second claim was that Surive! Knives is peddling vaporware. Well, here is the definition of vaporware from Google: "software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed." This pretty clearly applies to Survive! Knives. They have drawings and CAD renderings of blades and they have taken preorders on them. They are up on the site, thus being advertised, and are not yet available. The vaporware may, eventually turn real, just like some lucky kids got SuperGrafx in Japan, but this is neither dishonest or wrong at the moment.
The third claim was that Survive! Knives is running a scheme to bilk consumers. I never said this and I don't believe this to be the case. Some folks on the thread do believe that to be true, but I never said that or implied it.
The fourth claim was that the only way to acquire a knife was pay up front and wait years. Again, I never said this and I don't know if it is true one way or the other, in part, because of just how confusing it is to try to buy a knife from Survive! Knives.
RCB2000's feedback
RCB2000 brings up the Busse ordering system. He points out correctly that I did not explain that Busse only takes a dollar to place an order and then charges the rest later. This is true, both in that I did not mention it in the post and that Busse does this. I did not mention in the post because I had mentioned in in other posts and on the podcast. Given that I didn't think I needed to, but I should have. RCB also points out that Busse released a slew of knives this year and that is true too. They also did a bunch of other work--Blade, LEO/Mil work. True as well. My beef with Busse is that after the initial emails we received no communication about delays. I had to call to get it. But compared to Survive! Knives, Busse looks saintly. At least they said the knife was not in stock and they have a wait time of 2-20 weeks (one can complain of the lack of precision, but that's not the point).
RCB2000 also points out given Busse's work load that the four extra weeks seems worth it. I agree. It does. I just wish they would have told me about it instead of forcing me to go look for it. Maybe in that extra four weeks they can make me a sheath ;)
RCB2000 had one final point about Survive! Knives' order process: "I think you are making it sound more complicated and convoluted that really is, again to serve your narrative." There is simply no way around this fact--the process is not as simple as it could be. They could have a binary code: in stock or out of stock, but they chose not to do that. It may very well be true that the blades are worth the hassle, but there is, unquestionably, a hassle you have to wade through to buy something. This hassle is unnecessary in two senses. First, they could just be clearer about what they have and when it will ship. That's free. Second, compared to other small elite gear operations, like Muyshondt, Survive! Knives ordering is a baffling. Muyshondt is a one man show, a part time gig, and he is making very complex items.
Yet, if you go to Enrique's site, you can click a button and buy something. That is generally not possible on Survive! Knives site, despite appearing as though you can.
Silver Needle's feedback
Silver Needle claimed I disliked Survive! Knives. I will be truthful--I don't. I don't really like or dislike any brand. I like products and designers, but brands...they don't register for me as a like or dislike thing. They are pure abstraction, so liking or disliking a brand is similar to having an emotion response to the number 3.476 or some other arbitrary abstraction. I do like the design and look of many of Survive! Knives' blades, hence me placing an order.
He also pointed out that I was implying that Guy at Survive Knives was using scarcity as a marketing ploy. Let's be candid here--this is the fundamental tenant of capitalism. Scarcity drives demand. To say Guy was not doing that on a macroeconomic level is silly. Silver Needle is probable correct that it is not Guy's intent or plan, but to deny that he wants to sell hard to get products so he can make money is crazy. On a microeconomic level, I am certain Silver Needle is right that Guy Seiferd did not plan the scarcity. It seems like the fundamental issue over at Survive! Knives is a lack of planning, so I will chalk the scarcity up to that and not some nefarious marketing scheme (even if that is what a marketing person would want). As such, Silver Needle is right and I am wrong here--If I implied it was part of a plan, I was wrong.
Silver Needle makes a very good point and one I wish I would have stated outright. He says: "If he really thinks Guy is out to fool people by displaying designs and specs on the website yet delaying the production on purpose, then I'd strongly disagree." I do not think this at all. What I think happens is simple--Guy is a knife making savant and loves designing and grinding knives. His business organization and capacity need work. I have no doubt that if he could, Guy would meet all of the orders instantly. He just hasn't focused on the production process enough. And it has been years now. It's imperative, if Survive! Knives is to...er...survive and thrive as a business that they work on this issue. I can be patient and wait and so can a lot of the folks in their subforum, but the general knife buying public won't and eventually the fans will have bought all they want or need.
Lazarusrat's feedback
Lazarusrat has a good point too--I am upset that I had to pay in advance. The custom in the knife world, as mentioned above, it to NOT do this and nothing I have seen from Survive! Knives makes me think I should approach them differently. In fact, I have never paid up front for a custom knife, whether it was from Charles Gedraitis or Scott Sawby or Steve Karroll.
The custom is you don't do this and I have been careful not to do it either.
Clip's feedback
Clip makes a very good point, basically exactly my criticism--Survive! Knives should have more realistic (and posted) delivery dates.
General feedback
A few people pointed out that Survive! Knives model is very similar to the model used by Randall Made Knives. This is not true. The only common feature of the ordering systems is that both take a long time. Beyond that, there are no similarities. First, Randall Made Knives require only a $50 deposit on a knife that is usually more than $400. Survive! Knives requires payment in full ahead of time. Second, while the wait times are long, right now your order placed today would be delivered in 2021, Randall says that up front, which Survive! Knives does not. Third, and most critically, Randall Made Knives have generations of reliable production to count on and reassure customers. Survive! Knives has no track record of delivering products on a timely and consistent basis, even since their founding in 2012. This has always been an issue with them. Randall, on the other hand, churns out stuff like clockwork, slow clockwork, but clockwork nonetheless.
Conclusion
Survive! Knives makes what looks like to be great knives, now they need to work on the business of making those knives. First and foremost, and least expensively, they need to be clear and honest about what they have and how long it takes to ship stuff. That is absolutely without question a requirement. If they can't do that, regardless of how good the knives are, the business will never work. When all or most of your sales are done over the Internet, a form of communication (among other things), having good communication is key. If they don't change this, regardless of anything else, including the quality of the product, they will not succeed as a business. And this is the change that is easiest to make--it's free.
Second, the idea of paying up front is just not in carrying with custom. Nothing that Survive! Knives, or pretty much any other custom/small batch maker, does convinces me that they should be the exception to the rule and tradition in the knife world. If they were making Van Barnett-level blades with insane complexity and gold parts, sure. But they aren't. I am not investing in a company--despite what some people want--I am buying a product. If they want to do this "invest in my company thing" fine, go to a crowdfunding site. If not, don't expect people other than your most ardent fans to accept that as a business model. People want to buy products, not stock in Survive! Knives.
Finally, to give them slack because they are "young" or "small" is to ignore a whole class of gear makers that are the same age and size or newer and smaller and doing more complex stuff and getting it right, time and time again. Will Hodges of Tactile Turn makes some of the finest stuff out there and he gets it right over and over again. Enrique Muyshondt is the same--every product is a superior product made to the highest standards and produced and released on a regular basis. I have yet to see or hear a reason why Survive! Knives is different or should be held to a different standard. The list of folks that are in the same position as Survive! Knives or are newer and smaller goes on and on--Jason Hui of Prometheus, Brian Gray of Edison Pens, Brad Dowdy of NockCo, Jens Anso, Eugene of Olamic Cutlery, Jeff Freeman of Freeman Outdoors, Ryan of the James Brand...these are the folks I like to focus on with this blog and one of the reasons I was interested in Survive! Knives to begin with, but if they are going to enter this elite company, they need to do better.
Furthermore, and to take this back full circle to the point I was making in the original Small Batch Insanity post, the knife world is populated by very small companies. Even if you exclude the folks I mentioned above, the other companies, with three notable exceptions, are all tiny. Spyderco is a knife company with a global presence that has consistently made great knives for more than twenty years. They do this with a staff of around 30 people. CRKT is smaller. SOG is not much bigger. In fact, Benchmade, KAI USA, and Gerber/Fiskars are the only companies that are real, medium to large businesses. Then there is the thing that Thomas W explained to me once--anyone can make a good knife once, a great maker makes them consistently for years. Chris Reeve has done this. Mike Stewart has done this. Sal Glesser has done this. But some folks don't seem to appreciate that achievement. Instead, they fawn over these small companies for reasons that are unclear to me.
I want Survive! Knives to succeed. I want them to make great knives. I want one of them. But they need to work on the business side a little or they will, as I put it before, get lapped by the competition. Even if they don't want to do that and invest in infrastructure, they need to communicate with their customers better. What I experienced is unacceptable.
I appreciate BladeForums folks for knocking some sense into me. I hope I could return the favor. Thanks to RCB2000, Silver Needle, and Clip for letting me quote them. And, as always, the floor is open--if anyone wants to post a rebuttal, send it to me and I will publish it unaltered. Additionally anyone is welcome on the podcast. Heck if Guy Seiferd himself wants to write something or come on, he's welcome, too.
Anonymous's Feedback
One person took me up on my promise to publish comments unaltered. Here is what he or she wrote:
Saw your article on everyday commentary and recently your reaching out at the bladeforums.com Survive! subforum.
I wanted to give you a heads up to what you are walking into if you don't already know and a little background history.
I own six survive knives purchased over years including their newer 2016 models and I have about $1,000 on "preorder". So I am very much in-the loop and speak from personal involvement and experience. here is my current collection... http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1750/XQH9eQ.jpg
I wanted to give you a heads up, there are MANY very upset customers and non customer (observers) that believe Survive has gone from a legit business making excellent knives, to a legit business making excellent knives that is running a pyramid scheme, either deliberately or through gross incompetence. About two years ago, Survive! Changed thier main sales model over from selling them in small batches as they came up, to selling them primarly as "preorder/prepurchases".. When they made this change, they went so far as to claim it as an "investment" program inesting into the future of thier company. When they did this, they came up with Multiple CAD drawings of knives that only existed on paper and started taking preorders for thos.. In total, they created nine CAD drawing nonexistant knives and took preorders for those. The reasoning was so they could know exactly how many knives to commit to and to order the materials in Bulk and for just what they needed. Seemed legit. Where this has gone VERY south, is with the lead times. They only make ONE model at a time. Currently, they have been manufacturing the current model (GSO 4.7) for about a year.. and they are still not finished.
I brought this up in a concerned thread that raised lot of drama in bladeforums.. The concern being... if it takes them a year to make ONE knife, and they have NINE models on backorder with prepayments is that model sustainable? You can read this discussion here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1399221-What-is-reasonable-and-legal
You can also look at a lot of angry customers at their own facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/SurviveKnives/
Just a heads up, the Bladeforums survive! subforums is a group of dedicated coolaid drinking fanboys that will absolutely defend Survive! and SK!s business model no matter what you say. I wanted you to know that those specific people do NOT represent the bulk of the knife community and SK! customers. Many of the bladeforum SK! forum fans are made up of die hard fanboys that have THOUSANDS of dollars to spend on frivolous toys with no care or concern. Ineed you will see a number of thier fans will talk about how "Well I have thousands of dollars on X other investments and not worried about when they come in" The reality is, the rest of the survive customers- it IS a big deal to spend a thousand dollars and go years with nothing to show for. And yes, the lead times ARE a concern because if it takes one year to make one model- and they have 10 other models on backorder prepaid for, is that really a sustainable model? At some point they are going to get a mass demand for refunds..